<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1282</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	10/30/99 6:05:19 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest     Saturday, October 30 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1282<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant jump d...<BR>
Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
Re: opengl95.exe<BR>
Re: [OT] Cultural Differences<BR>
Re: Interactive fiction<BR>
Re: Traveller 3D Art Mailing List (was Re: 3D Art)<BR>
Attention William Hostman<BR>
Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
Diving depths : some data points (was BD crush depths)<BR>
Economics for fun and Profit<BR>
Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant jump drives (was Re: Just say "no" to lhyd))<BR>
Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 09:50:02 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
<BR>
> From: "Frank Pitt" <BR>
>  > I think the MiGE/CoD universe would be a great place to play, but it<BR>
> > needs a well thought out setup.  I don't think either Pournelle or<BR>
> > Nivin rpg, or have any interest in rpging.  I'd also lay you odds<BR>
> > that they would want a nice hefty licensing fee to use their<BR>
> > background in anything commercial.<BR>
> <BR>
> Larry Niven seemed fine with other people writing in the "Known<BR>
Universe",<BR>
> there are quite a lot of people who have written "Known Univere" stories,<BR>
> and authors in general aren't heavily into "licensing" their universes,<BR>
they<BR>
> are normally flattered if you ask to write something in their settiing,<BR>
and<BR>
> are really only concerned with whether you voiolate their idea of what<BR>
the<BR>
> universe is like, which usually means they ask for veto rights on<BR>
> publication or at least some sort of editorial control..<BR>
> <BR>
> > I don't even know if it would be<BR>
> > legal to develop something non-commercial based on the MiGE universe<BR>
> > for more than personal use.<BR>
> <BR>
> There is nothing _illegal_ in people so doing .<BR>
<BR>
Back in the 80s, Chaosium published the Ringworld RPG, covering Niven's<BR>
Known Space setting.  Niven was involved in this project, so he knows what<BR>
RPGs are.  Unfortunately the game itself didn't really take off.  I gather<BR>
the licence fees tended to hurt Chaosium's profit margins too.<BR>
<BR>
SJG used to have an article on their web pages about using GURPS in the<BR>
CoDominium setting.  It doesn't seem to be there any more.  It was pretty<BR>
short, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
There are plenty of unauthorised GURPS versions of various writers'<BR>
universes floating around the Net.  <BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:18:36 EDT<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant jump d...<BR>
<BR>
For those of you interested in the MIGE universe, check out <BR>
http://www.chonology.org/pournelle/<BR>
It has a detailed timeline, and astronomical details derived from fanatical <BR>
analysis of all of Pournelle's writings.  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:24:01 -0500<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
<BR>
I am fiddling with something called Micrografx Simply 3D.  Ever heard of it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> That's one thing that I wish Lightwave did better:  landscapes & atmospheric<BR>
> conditions.  The tools in Bryce are MUCH better for that type of thing than<BR>
> Lightwave.<BR>
><BR>
> The interface design, well....<BR>
> :)<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 3:23 AM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >> I don't have any experience with PovRay, but someone on this list used it<BR>
> >> IIRC.....<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> >Somebody mentioned that POVRAY was free.  How easy to use is povray?  Is<BR>
> >it<BR>
> >> >worth the time to download it because it is obviously worth the price of<BR>
> >> >nothing.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I've used povray, and it's very easy to use, but at least back when I use<BR>
> it<BR>
> >the problem was that it's _just_ a renderer .<BR>
> ><BR>
> >It doesn't really provide you with any tools for interactively designing<BR>
> >anything, you describe all the points, the textures, and the lighting in a<BR>
> >_text_ file, and then tell povray  to render it.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Really easy to use for spheres & squares, etc, but very hard to define<BR>
> >complex 3D objects,  though some people have done some amazing work with<BR>
> it.<BR>
> >If you have some too that can provide you with a three-dimensional point<BR>
> >map, then PovRay can render it.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >There are other options out there.  Bryce is nowhere near as expensive as<BR>
> >Light Wave and it has a much better and easier to use interface than<BR>
> >LightWave, though obvioulsy it's not as powerful.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Bryce also let's you do complete scenes nicely, as it includes Vista-Pro<BR>
> >type landscape tools as well as cloud maps, and specific lighting tools for<BR>
> >replicating the effect of a light source through cloud /haze/fog<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Frankie<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------<BR>
he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
<BR>
      Shimmer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:25:25 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
<BR>
Heard of it, don't know a thing about it ;)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 5:25 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I am fiddling with something called Micrografx Simply 3D.  Ever heard of<BR>
it?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> That's one thing that I wish Lightwave did better:  landscapes &<BR>
atmospheric<BR>
>> conditions.  The tools in Bryce are MUCH better for that type of thing<BR>
than<BR>
>> Lightwave.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The interface design, well....<BR>
>> :)<BR>
>><BR>
>> Jesse<BR>
>><BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>> Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 3:23 AM<BR>
>> Subject: Re: Yet more 3D work<BR>
>><BR>
>> ><BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >> I don't have any experience with PovRay, but someone on this list used<BR>
it<BR>
>> >> IIRC.....<BR>
>> >><BR>
>> >> >Somebody mentioned that POVRAY was free.  How easy to use is povray?<BR>
Is<BR>
>> >it<BR>
>> >> >worth the time to download it because it is obviously worth the price<BR>
of<BR>
>> >> >nothing.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >I've used povray, and it's very easy to use, but at least back when I<BR>
use<BR>
>> it<BR>
>> >the problem was that it's _just_ a renderer .<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >It doesn't really provide you with any tools for interactively designing<BR>
>> >anything, you describe all the points, the textures, and the lighting in<BR>
a<BR>
>> >_text_ file, and then tell povray  to render it.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Really easy to use for spheres & squares, etc, but very hard to define<BR>
>> >complex 3D objects,  though some people have done some amazing work with<BR>
>> it.<BR>
>> >If you have some too that can provide you with a three-dimensional point<BR>
>> >map, then PovRay can render it.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >There are other options out there.  Bryce is nowhere near as expensive<BR>
as<BR>
>> >Light Wave and it has a much better and easier to use interface than<BR>
>> >LightWave, though obvioulsy it's not as powerful.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Bryce also let's you do complete scenes nicely, as it includes Vista-Pro<BR>
>> >type landscape tools as well as cloud maps, and specific lighting tools<BR>
for<BR>
>> >replicating the effect of a light source through cloud /haze/fog<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Frankie<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> ><BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>----------------------------------------------<BR>
>he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
><BR>
>      Shimmer<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:28:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
<BR>
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe<BR>
<BR>
>SJG used to have an article on their web pages about using GURPS in the<BR>
>CoDominium setting.  It doesn't seem to be there any more.  It was pretty<BR>
>short, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You know what I have found works really well to simulate the CoDo<BR>
setting, is Leading Edge Games.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,<BR>
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd<BR>
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of<BR>
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
 Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they did it by<BR>
killing all those who opposed them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:32:18 -0500<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: opengl95.exe<BR>
<BR>
I got the file now.  thanks for your time.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nope.  Tried Microsoft's home page?  Maybe there?<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 11:25 AM<BR>
> Subject: opengl95.exe<BR>
><BR>
> >opengl95.exe<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Any of you 3d artists out there have a copy of this file?  I can't find<BR>
> >anywhere.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >----------------------------------------------<BR>
> >he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
> ><BR>
> >      Shimmer<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------<BR>
he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
<BR>
      Shimmer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:32:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Cultural Differences<BR>
<BR>
>"Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> typed thusly:<BR>
><BR>
>>No flames please.  This isn't intended to be an anti-American post; it's<BR>
intended to get you to look at things from a slightly different perspective.<BR>
>><BR>
> Certainly. The only thing I really disagree with is:<BR>
><BR>
>> I've been to Japan, I'm rather familiar with the place, McDonalds puts<BR>
cheese on the burgers there, too.<BR>
><BR>
> You mean they put cheese on their cheeseburgers HERE? Could have fooled<BR>
me...<BR>
><BR>
OK, you got me there.  I suppose it's the same processed cheese food<BR>
substance that they use here.  I've never had anything other than ice tea<BR>
with sugar syrup at a Japanese McD's.<BR>
<BR>
Not a big McD's fan here.  I still remember arguing with my ex-BF Tashiro,<BR>
then a student at Tsukuba-dai (the biggest science university in Japan):  "I<BR>
did NOT come all the way across the Pacific to eat at McD's!  Let's go to<BR>
Cafe Mozart, this is my vacation, I wanna take *you* out!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
LOL...<BR>
<BR>
I often wonder what became of that guy.  He was the lead singer of a metal<BR>
band and they used to dress up in sentai (Power Ranger) type costumes for<BR>
their shows.  He was such a hoot and I adored him, but it wasn't meant to<BR>
be.<BR>
<BR>
No, I guess they don't put cheese on the McD's burgers, but they do put<BR>
cream cheese in the tea sandwiches and cheddar cheese in those little yummy<BR>
buns from the Pronto coffee shops (like a Japanese version of Starbucks only<BR>
2000 percent better food and coffee and they don't give you evil looks when<BR>
you ask where the restroom is)-- and at night it turns into a bar!<BR>
<BR>
I love Tokyo but I do occasionally get strange looks in further outlying<BR>
places.  It's different because I am part-Asian but not necessarily<BR>
recognizably so...?  When I travel with my friends the Tanakas, (he's<BR>
Japanese, she's white, two kids) people think I am part of the family but<BR>
can't figure out quite how-- I look like Natsumi and Marie, but Darla and<BR>
Takashi aren't old enough to be my parents.  I have very long straight black<BR>
hair but very white skin and dark eyes (I'm often mistaken for a Latina) and<BR>
what I tend to get is the bugawk effect, so named because I blend into the<BR>
crowd, and then someone comes up to tell me that my backpack came unzipped<BR>
or something like that, I turn around and they see that my eyes are missing<BR>
a fold and they look like they're about to go "bugawk"!  Then they decide to<BR>
speak English, even if they can't.<BR>
<BR>
And then I very calmly have to say "nihongo de douzo, yoku wakarimashita yo<BR>
(speak Japanese, I understood you just fine)."  I really wonder what it is<BR>
like to be a white European non-English speaking tourist in Japan.  They<BR>
think all white people speak English.  And not Japanese.<BR>
<BR>
LOL.  I guess if you were travelling among the Vilani, and spoke Vilani, and<BR>
looked almost-but-not-quite Vilani, you'd get the bugawk reaction too.<BR>
<BR>
Bugawk!<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, 90% of Americans hear and say my name as "Carrie/Kerry/Keri" no matter<BR>
how many times I correct them.  (It means "fog".)<BR>
<BR>
This has gotten Hiroshi in trouble.  "Carrie called me?  Who's THAT?"<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan            93!              Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
the current fair warnings:<BR>
<BR>
"No matter what, expect the unexpected.  And whenever<BR>
possible, BE the unexpected."     -- Lynda Barry<BR>
<BR>
"Honest to the point of recklessness, and self-centered<BR>
 in the extreme."            -- Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia<BR>
<BR>
"God sent me to piss the world off!"  -- Eminem<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:33:27 -0500<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Interactive fiction<BR>
<BR>
- --------------4DC8FAAB34F24D2E16CAAB2E<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
This sounds cool.  I'd love to see this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If anyone out there remembers the old days of "interactive fiction,"<BR>
> (Adventure, Zork, etc), I have finished the logic for an IF<BR>
> walkthrough of a Type S scout/courrier. If anyone has really good<BR>
> descriptions of any of the rooms they would like included in this<BR>
> exercise, let me know. You can now enter through the airlock, walk<BR>
> around the ship, and open and close doors. Ideas for developing this<BR>
> into something more interesting will also be appreciated. If anyone is<BR>
> interested in having this exercise adapted to other ships, drop me a<BR>
> line also. It's very easy to adapt the core logic to other<BR>
> ships. Finally, in case anyone cares, the tool used to produce the<BR>
> z-machine code was Inform 6.21. If you don't know what that means, you<BR>
> probably will not care. Luther Martinmartin@ksarul.com<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------<BR>
he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
<BR>
      Shimmer<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------4DC8FAAB34F24D2E16CAAB2E<BR>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
This sounds cool.&nbsp; I'd love to see this.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style></FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>Ifanyone out there remembers the old days of "interactive fiction," (Adventure, Zork, etc), I have finished the logic for an IF walkthrough of a Type S scout/courrier. If anyone has really good descriptions of any of the rooms they would like included in this exercise, let me know. You can now enter through the airlock, walk around the ship, and open and close doors. Ideas for developing this into something more interesting will also be appreciated.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>Ifanyone is interested in having this exercise adapted to other ships, dropme a line also. It's very easy to adapt the core logic to other ships.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>Finally,in case anyone cares, the tool used to produce the z-machine code was Inform 6.21. If you don't know what that means, you probably will not care.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT  SIZE=2 PTSIZE=8>LutherMartin<A HREF="mailto:martin@ksarul.com">martin@ksarul.com</A></FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></blockquote><BR>
--<BR>
----------------------------------------------<BR>
he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Shimmer<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
- --------------4DC8FAAB34F24D2E16CAAB2E--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:34:12 -0500<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller 3D Art Mailing List (was Re: 3D Art)<BR>
<BR>
waits on edge of seat<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> That's actually part of the idea for Trav3D.  I was going to propose that in<BR>
> the mail I'm putting together.  More soon.<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 8:17 AM<BR>
> Subject: Traveller 3D Art Mailing List (was Re: 3D Art)<BR>
><BR>
> >        There seem to be several of us tinkering and toodling to varying<BR>
> >degrees with 3D stuff for Traveller.  Would anyone like me to set up a<BR>
> >mailing list on my box where we can jaw about anything we've figured out<BR>
> >relative to modeling "Objects Traveller", get peer-group feedback and such?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >        If you are interested, please RSVP off-list.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >        --Michel<BR>
> ><BR>
> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
> > Michel R. Vaillancourt misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
> > ICQ # 31172292<BR>
> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
> >     NET-City Communications....<BR>
> >          Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
> > ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------<BR>
he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
<BR>
      Shimmer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:36:16 -0500<BR>
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Attention William Hostman<BR>
<BR>
Hey william.  did you get my message requesting the Traveller World of Darkness?<BR>
i am still interested in it if you still don't mind sending it to me.  Please?<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------<BR>
he he he he he he he he he he he he<BR>
<BR>
      Shimmer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:44:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] One Day In Peace<BR>
<BR>
>>> I think there's a high level of social control in AMERICA.  Total<BR>
strangers will come up to you and tell you that you shouldn't smoke, you're<BR>
too fat to eat this or that, God help you if you're pregnant and you dare to<BR>
eat anything in public because someone will have an opinion about it...<BR>
>>><BR>
>> Reminds me of the time I was eating a burger at a local mall fast-food<BR>
court and was accosted by a vegetarian animal-rights fanatic about my choice<BR>
of food. (It's a good thing that the mall security came by and kicked him<BR>
out, as I was giving serious thought to the idea of force-feeding the rest<BR>
of my burger to the guy...)<BR>
><BR>
>Reminds me of the time a militant vegetarian made the mistake of assuming<BR>
the Goths of alt.gothic were necessarily left-wing animal rights nuts.  Heh.<BR>
><BR>
yeesh!  I'm a goth, we like blood!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Alt.g was also about half-and-half gun control nuts and 2nd Amendment<BR>
fanatics--seems that many persons-in-black like to be able defend themselves<BR>
from creeps who think its okay to beat up and abuse someone just because<BR>
they are of a fringe minority.<BR>
><BR>
yup...<BR>
<BR>
>>> People walk right up to you and ask you to change your religion, and<BR>
they're not respectful about it either.<BR>
>>><BR>
>> I hate it when people do that. Sometimes they come by my house and ring<BR>
the doorbell -- I've taken to closing the door in their faces without<BR>
comment... I don't go around telling people to give up their religions and<BR>
become an athiest, and expect the same courtesy from others...<BR>
>><BR>
>I don't like that approach because it turns people off and drives them away<BR>
from something they might have been drawn to and gained great benefit from<BR>
otherwise. (Yes, I'm Christian.)<BR>
><BR>
Your choice.  My point is very simple.  I do not go and stand outside of<BR>
your church on Easter and tell you to get right with your ancestors...  I do<BR>
not exhort the virtues of the kami or the buddhas to people who are not<BR>
interested... and hence, I request the same courtesy.  I was raised by a<BR>
white adoptive family in West Virginia and if I were going to become a<BR>
Christian I would have done so already by now.  But you have a valid point.<BR>
<BR>
>> >I've been asked really rude questions by people I had never seen before<BR>
about pentacles, prayer beads, etc.  People stand outside of clinics and<BR>
shout at you about medical procedures they disapprove of.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> And we're not allowed to carry flamethrowers in public to deal with them<BR>
either...<BR>
>><BR>
>Let's not go there, as I have diametrically opposed views.<BR>
>We don't need flamethrowing on the TML over abortion.<BR>
><BR>
My point was that it's not a political issue outside of the US.  This kind<BR>
of protest doesn't happen in Japan.  People who are opposed to abortion<BR>
don't have abortions and leave other people alone.  I don't think people who<BR>
yell at you or throw paint around outside of abortion clinics or fur stores<BR>
should be attacked with flamethrowers.  I do think that they should be<BR>
arrested for trespassing if they set one foot on the property and that if<BR>
they become loud, unruly, or physically threaten/approach/taunt/touch people<BR>
as they enter or leave, they should be arrested for assault (and battery, if<BR>
they actually touched anyone).  It amazes me that people don't use the laws<BR>
that already exist to deal with either abortion or animal rights protestors<BR>
at their place of business.<BR>
<BR>
But no, I don't think anyone needs to have a flamethrower aimed at them.  If<BR>
people want to sit around outside and pray, there is not much that can be<BR>
said or done-- it just doesn't happen in Japan, is all, because the culture<BR>
is different.  When they yell at people, interpose their bodies, etc. they<BR>
are legally committing assault.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan            93!              Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
the current fair warnings:<BR>
<BR>
"No matter what, expect the unexpected.  And whenever<BR>
possible, BE the unexpected."     -- Lynda Barry<BR>
<BR>
"Honest to the point of recklessness, and self-centered<BR>
 in the extreme."            -- Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia<BR>
<BR>
"God sent me to piss the world off!"  -- Eminem<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:47:00 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Diving depths : some data points (was BD crush depths)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to poke sticks at a dead thread.<BR>
The following RW info may be useful for comparative purposes :-<BR>
<BR>
Depth,m  Notes<BR>
(metres -> feet : X 3.281)<BR>
20       limit for helmet divers (1930s)<BR>
40       typical breath-hold diving (e.g. pearl divers) ; 2 minutes<BR>
         dive time ; nitrogen narcosis breathing compressed air<BR>
         becomes a potential problem, especially with long dives<BR>
         (> 2 hours)<BR>
60       heliox mixtures required at and below this depth for dives<BR>
         greater than a few minutes in duration ('bounce dives')<BR>
120      WW2 submarine operating limit ; (heated) dry suits ; diving<BR>
         cylinders (e.g. Link type)<BR>
130      world record breath-hold dive (total dive time 2min 11sec,<BR>
         1996)<BR>
150      limit for 'hard hat' divers (helmet divers, 1960s)<BR>
180      Bluefin tuna routinely dive to this depth<BR>
200      rough crush depth for WW2 submarines<BR>
282      Scuba-diving record (1994)<BR>
~300     approximate operating limit for modern nuclear subs<BR>
         (Soviet 'Alpha' class able to dive deeper due to advanced<BR>
         hull?)<BR>
~410     Bathysphere (Dr. W. Beebe, 1920s)<BR>
~450     Seals observed to dive to this depth<BR>
600+     'Jim' (internal pressure = 1 atm) and 'Wasp' suits (TTL 7-8)<BR>
         - have dived deeper than this ; crush depth ~800m<BR>
750      operating depth for the U.S. Navy's DSRV-1 and NR-1 ;<BR>
         ?crush depth<BR>
1000     Sperm whales have been observed to dive this far<BR>
~3900    'Alvin' bathyscape's rated depth<BR>
~4000    FNRS 3 (1954) - world record at the time<BR>
~6000    rated operating depth for underwater camera and robot<BR>
         platforms e.g. 'Argo' and 'Jason'<BR>
10911    'Trieste' (into the Marianas trench, 1960).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:03:24 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Economics for fun and Profit<BR>
<BR>
Graeme spake thus:<BR>
<BR>
<<<BR>
How hard is it to use Imperial credits, OUTSIDE the Imperium?<BR>
The Sword Worlders (and for that matter the Darrians) have their own currency,<BR>
right?<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
Being a member of said party, and being the money hungry persoan I am, we dont<BR>
use currency....we steal beg and borrow. Your not getting a red razoo from the<BR>
party treasury because its MINE MINE MINE HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Um , I will take<BR>
the pills now :-)<BR>
<BR>
<<<<BR>
I assume that they conduct trade with the Imperium, so there must be some way to<BR>
exchange currencies.<BR>
Is the money traded like it is on our <rl> stock markets?<BR>
Who sets the exchange rates? That is; how do they decide that a Swordworlder<BR>
buck is worth half a credit or whatever?<BR>
Is it due to market forces, and does that mean that players would be able to<BR>
dabble on the money market?<BR>
Finally, how is the money backed? Do they use something like the gold standard<BR>
(ie the money is issued against gold and precious metal reserves held by the<BR>
government), or what?<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
Given that many worlds, nations and coperations  have their own script, I would<BR>
argue that currency dealing is a way of life. Given that we are going to the<BR>
Sword world, I would argue that the Imperial Credit is an in-demand currency, as<BR>
most of the goods that the SW need (weapons) atre Imperially sourced. Given the<BR>
rampant lasie faire economics of Traveller, Each SW would have a currency<BR>
exchange mechanism not unlike what we have here.<BR>
<BR>
For more fun (tm), you could have the SW impound imperial scripts, or make them<BR>
illegal to use. It really depends on how evil the GM feels (Hi Cory!).<BR>
<BR>
FYI: The party is a bunch of motley mercs with cutting edge weaponry (an orbital<BR>
strike team). I happen to be an ex merchant trouble shooter (a fusion of agent<BR>
and merchent, with Navy Intel experience courtasy of the FFW), we have the usual<BR>
mix homicidal loons (um, Navy fighter jock who must have wanted to be a marine,<BR>
a real marine, a Vagr, and a furniture salesman who had to be taught by me how<BR>
to sell stuff :-)<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:33:10 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe (was Re: Traveller: Aberrant jump drives (was Re: Just say "no" to lhyd))<BR>
<BR>
At 11:21 PM 10/29/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>needs a well thought out setup.  I don't think either Pournelle or<BR>
>>Nivin rpg, or have any interest in rpging.  I'd also lay you odds<BR>
><BR>
>I don't know about conventional paper-based gaming, but Pournelle seems to<BR>
>be fairly into computer games based on his 'Byte' articles.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Many years ago Niven allowed someone to put out a Ringworld RPG. It didn't<BR>
last long due to lack of interest.<BR>
<BR>
<Digs in home library><BR>
<BR>
Okay, Chaosium Inc. did the RPG. Also, there are some universe designing<BR>
notes in N-Space by Larry Niven where he talks about some of the properties<BR>
of the Alderson Drive. It's a long to type up but I could if there is a<BR>
massive outpouring of demand for it.<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:06:32 -0400<BR>
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
> From: Legate Legion <legate@futureone.com><BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe <BR>
> Date: Saturday, 30 October, 1999 8:28 PM<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
> Subject: Re: Alderson Drives and the MiGE Universe<BR>
> <BR>
> >SJG used to have an article on their web pages about using GURPS in the<BR>
> >CoDominium setting.  It doesn't seem to be there any more.  It was<BR>
pretty<BR>
> >short, anyway.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>     You know what I have found works really well to simulate the CoDo<BR>
> setting, is Leading Edge Games.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
At the risk of starting a system war, I'd say GURPS would handle the whole<BR>
setting almost effortlessly.  Like Leading Edge, it's a reasonably<BR>
realistic system as befits the decidedly realistic feel of Pournelle's<BR>
books.  And GURPS already has the rules in place to handle the appropriate<BR>
technology.  I just picked up Space 3rd Edition, and I think that one could<BR>
model the space travel tech used in the CoDominium/MiGE universe with<BR>
almost no effort (Jump Drive for Alderson Drive, and a moderately powerful<BR>
total conversion drive for the real-space drive.  Further, the default<BR>
force screens in GURPS are obviously modeled on the Langston Field (Slow<BR>
objects can pass through, beams and fast objects are deflected.  Screens<BR>
accumulate energy levels when hit, glowing in different colors as the<BR>
levels increase.  Powerful attacks can "blow through" the screen without<BR>
destroying it. Etc.)  <BR>
<BR>
Tom Schoene<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1282<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (rly-yb03.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.3]) by air-yb01.mail.aol.com (v62.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:05:19 -0400<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (v62.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:04:59 -0400<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id WAA85027;<BR>
	Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:04:21 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:03:10 -0400<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA84955<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:03:09 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 22:03:09 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
Message-Id: <199910310203.WAA84955@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1282<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
